45 acp damage human body

Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage, Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License, Best Self-Defense Caliber and Damage to the Human Body, Effectiveness of Bullet Wounds: How Gunshot Wounds Work, What Happens When You Get Shot: Damage to the Human Body. Whether it hits the shoulder, the leg, arm, hip, whatever. I carry a s&w .357 airweight not fun to shoot due to recoil and sound. My bottom line is to shoot what you shoot the best. I can load my rounds as hot as I want, and often do. Patricks treatise outlines the following factors to consider regarding handgun bullets: Accordingly, the best handgun rounds will reliably cause a permanent cavity that will penetrate the soft tissue of an adversary between 12 and 18 inches. Overall I enjoyed reading your piece and found it noteworthy that Smith&Wesson ( one of the great disappointments of this and the last century) was eliminated from the contract competition. I believe you are in some way getting a kick back from someone, wanting to push the idea that the 9mm is more affective than the 45. G19 vs custom 1911 equals a big price difference. I Have hair and an angular face. Alvin York was a prodigy, a natural marksman of frankly terrifying and borderline-supernatural skill. This is why, when training with a firearm, you should train for the center of mass, regardless of target anatomy or angle. I assume that it is cost that is the main concern. I think everyone should think back to why the 1911 was made. (As my Sr. DI liked to say Two in the chest, and one in the head, then youre pretty damned sure that the bastard is dead.. The money has to come from somewhere. AT 500 fps a 230 grains projectile would only have 127 foot pounds of energy leaving the muzzle. Please dont send me any hate mail. You know, Indians killed each other, white settlers, and hunted with a bow &. Tearing and rupturing is common in tissue surrounding the wound channel. Then get ready for a gunfight. Its hard for Civilians to understand the firepower of the Military & Police, and what they can choose to bring to bear on their target, but we are responsible for each bullet fired, as Civilians! Damage: 22. Just carry what YOU feel most comfortable with and shoot the best with as shot placement is most important. Projectiles do not accelerate once they leave the muzzle. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. However, there are two factors virtually everyone agrees on: 1. What that means is that handgun bullets, as opposed to the devastating wound channels rifle projectiles can cause, are only just poking little holes in people. Fortunately or unfortunately I did shoot other humans with a 45 as close as 4 feet. We all, sitting safe and pretty, can discuss this and that but we are NOT in their shoes. You're free to republish or share any of our articles (either in part or in full), which are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. What do you Think of the S&W Shield? Maybe .22 LR? He became an FBI agent and served in the FBI for 30 years, retiring in the position of supervisory special agent/chief division counsel. A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy of the human body Wellcome L0024128.jpg 1,100 1,796; 960 KB. In July, reports indicated that the top candidates in the final running for the new $17 million-dollar Modular Handgun System (MHS) contract to replace the current Beretta M9 included Glock's G17, the Sig Sauer P320, Smith & Wesson's M&P, and the new Beretta APX among others. Scalise, a Republican from Louisiana whose condition has been upgraded to serious, suffered broken bones, ruptured blood vessels, and shredded internal organs. The programs, policies, and people driving positive change in Americas gun violence problem. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. Shot placement?! I have 9 mm and I own mostly 45 ACPs, I can conceal a combat Commander with a small of the back holster with shorts T-shirt and flip-flops and nobody will know its there. Wow now this argument of 9 mm verses 45 acp is stupid. However, for the civilian this is generally an impractical plan for a variety of reasons. Tissue inside the human body is remarkably elastic, even vital organs such as the lungs, bowels or circulatory system. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! Still, the research is not widespread and a great deal of it is not terribly relevant for the average person searching for a reliable self-defense weapon. I seem to recall reading in Rangemaster newsletter a month or two ago an FBI paper making the FMJ case. Im not going to begin to discuss the variables between the two calibers and cartridge designs but statistics released from DOJ shows that larger cartridges are more effective at stopping Humans per round on target. Looks like a Chinese-made toy gun. People kill people. Now lets get back to today in time and we do have very good defense ammo so most of the time Id agree that the 9mm is equal to any other round out there today for human sized targets and smaller as well. Bob. Better get that imagination under control, tough guy! They will simply leave their buddy there to die (and hopefully be able to take one of us with him). Train, train train and when your done. I have been hand loading my rifle and pistol ammo since 1975. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. Any gun between 9 mil and .45 caliber is fine if you can conceal it, and employ it quickly and with reasonable accuracy. Can someone comment on this? We look forward to serving you. I havent heard anything about the M17 yet, but I am guessing that people will say at least they arent completely worn out and rattling like a kids toy, with parts falling off them, like all the M9s were.. One week later the detective in charge advised me that papa lived, walked out of the hospital and back to Mexico. As someone just coming in your home or coming at you out of the blue. Did you know that Durys has been in business since 1959? Then moved to 10mm (after the 1986 Miami shootout). Still, I think when we're talking about pistol caliber handguns, it's pretty hard to measure any substantial accuracy differences when we're rarely shooting at distances greater than 15-25 yards if that. Desert Eagle Ammo Type: .45 ACP. Not to mention costs savings in ammo which is a big deal both in the government and civilian perspective. 9mm Federal 150 grain Micro HST or Winchester 147 grain Ranger will expand 0.7", better than at least half the .45 defensive rounds out there (most common expansion is about 0.6", which is the same as many modern 9mm defense rounds), but there are also some.45 Were investigating how it spends its money. The .45 is a bit harder to conceal so people may freak out. They ability to kill. WebSearch: 45 Acp Damage Human Body. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often. But in the Kaos of combat (especially at dark:30) your intended target isnt usually going to present itself and just stand there for your perfect shot placement. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. We need to dial back our expectations of how effective a pistol is, regardless of caliber, barring brain or spine shots. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. Example; a bb to the eyeball is very effective. Japanese quail chicks in a studythe results 1039 NE Loop 410San Antonio, TX 78209(210)-533-5431, 819 Hot Wells BlvdSan Antonio, Texas 78223(210)-533-5468, WE SHIP TO ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES, Copyright 2023 Durys Guns | Powered by Durys Guns. Modern ammunition changes the field somewhat. The 45 hit harder and put your target down more quickly than the 9 mm. I just make it my business to shoot all handgun cartridges well out to 25yards. With the 45 2 at most. I can say with great certainty that many animals dont just simply fall over and die. Our only requirement is that you give Ammo.com appropriate credit by linking to the original article. From my time in the USMC, I saw a certain population fall in love with the 9mm bc of its easier to handle recoil. That has been the best comment so far. WebAs shown in Fig. But its easy tell which one of you are the idiots, and those of us that actually know are trying to skate uphill teaching those that dont. People have died from .22 LR in one shot. Because recoil obviously cant be observed and you have to shoot someone huh, I heard of a police officer shooting a dog 6 times with a 9 mm before being able to incapacitate the dog. So its definitely capable. So how can we expect people to take a human life so readily? Wondering if these Marine special operators are not only allowed but required to carry exclusively the 15-round Glock 19, why not the slightly larger and higher capacity Glock 17? As stated before, this article isnt intended to solve the stopping power debate, but only to discuss the issues it involves. To my way of thinking, its great as a CC gun, or that in the boot back-up. If you find yourself in a legitimate self-defense scenario, you will likely not have the opportunity nor the wherewithal to take a careful and well-aimed shot at your assailant's head. The deers shot with 9 ran and ran far compared to the short distance the 45 shot deer covered (100yds or less). We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. Physics says my 225 grain .45 ACP ,+P+ traveling at 1210 fps is more capable than ANY 9mm currently available. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not exit from a human body. It may take 2 rounds to take someone down, but the shooter will have a lot easier follow up shots with the smaller 9mm. Now they have announced they are moving back to the 9mm in the form of the new Gen5 Glock 17M. very obvious. This gave the enemy a chance to still bury a spearhead in the shooters chest, before finally collapsing from internal damage and blood loss. This post has been updated to include information released by the FBI regarding the weapon used in the shooting. IMHO, everyone of us is different in all ways from head to toe and mostly including the brain and fitting a handgun is different for all. It enables struggling shooters to attain better weapon control/shot placement, and permits skilled shooters to be faster and more accurate. I usually only post on the Reloading and Springfield portions of this forum, but I feel it needs to be stated of course that all the well educated and sincere folks who have posted actual facts regarding calibers and flung mass "shapes" are simply trying to destroy the internet and forums like these. But associates I worked with and against on jobs they all use one main gun to kill with the 9 mm with silencer. R45 Ammo Type: .45 ACP. Do Not Sell My Personal Information, If you need further help setting your homepage, check your browsers Help menu, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,, Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer,, FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection, supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. Model. In any event, I used that data when shopping for a lighter and more easily concealed EDC than my .357 magnum revolver and hi-cap .45 ACP. And while you might think that lethality by caliber is the main factor you should be looking for, the simple fact is that while a 22 rimfire is deadly, it is far from the best round for incapacitating an assailant in the here and now. But the guy kept on coming. Even the Scout Snipers are still using the .308, whereas superior platforms are using .300 Win Mags and .338 Lapuas. Garand Thumb 2.84M subscribers 4.2M views 1 year ago 9mm vs 45 ACP, the age old debate and the one that With the continuation of the pussification of America we see so many in posotions of power making decisions that follow the continuation of that thinkinhg. People have lived through being nuclear bombed. Q-Did the owners of their weapons replace recoil springs on a maintenance schedule? When I left LE I traided for a S&W 39-2 9mm. Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse. I like a simple .45 +P with a lot of lead. One or two out of every twenty or more perfect placement leaves me desirous of a heavy hitter. The 1986 FBI Miami shootout between eight FBI agents and two serial bank robbers was the deadliest and most violent shootout in FBI history. One last thing, I love the MC but for a military branch that has prided itself on marksmanship, they went along all too easily to 5.56/.223 and away from a real rifle (M-14). A pellet traveling at 450 fps (feet per second) can cause serious injury or death to a human depending on the type of pellet and the location of the impact. I have got to wonder about this Neil Clapperton quoted above. A bullet entering an enemys body does damage in two ways. Tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms: There are two places that we know will incapacitate a man every time they are hit: the brain and the upper spinal column. Make your best shot number one. Now thats hilarious. It is extremely difficult to shoot accurately under such pressure. These features, along with superb marketing efforts, have made the 9mm the round of choice, not only for the armed forces, but also for most police departments in the U.S. His career began as a special agent with NCIS. I shot Master for a while. Its why neck-down cartridges for .223 are even used. It is also of considerable general interest if for no other reason than to show how often the movie makers and novel writers make appalling blunders. Using the cone attack gives you a low ammo condition that imposes disadvantage on attack rolls until you reload, and you have 2 reloads per day. Another, was a 300lb black bear. While this research is geared toward law enforcement officers, it cuts through the confusion, and provides common-sense, scientifically supported principles by which the effectiveness of self-defense ammunition may more generally be measured. So In a effort to So I want a round that will do the trick no matter if he flinches or I do. (stress free situation) I also have a sig, p38 and carry that when its warm out.hightly concealable in a alien gear holster. They should have several different handguns depending on the shoot I myself at 6 to 200 pounds and have a large chance by far the best pistol Ive ever shot is the 1911. Shot placement is often cited as a consideration when choosing the right handgun for self defense and for good reason its definitely important. But you have to shoot the gun your most accurate with and most comfortable with but if you dont seat the grip of any pistol in the web of the hand deeply all guns no matter what the caliber the gun will whip in the hand. With proper shot placement, I can make my .22 a rock star. The Human Torso Test. unless the guy is coming at you with body armor, if you have more than three bullets in your gun you dont really have a lot to worry about. We carried 19 rounds of 9mm in combat. Millenials and their bias arguments. ammo. I spend a great deal of time on the range. Damage: 22 per pellet. Ill take an M4, even with the M855 green-tip ammo that everyone says sucks, over an MP40 or a Thompson or any handgun any day of the week. One writer mentioned the old adage about wounding one and it takes two more to remove him from the field of battle. I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. The tests resulted in the selection in 1989 of the 10mm bullet as the most effective and accurate round for FBI agents to carry. I dont have the time to read it. Cant get into why I know this but but Im retired from the Government. Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. In those 53 years, weve built a reputation as one of Texass most trusted firearms dealers, and we did it in a state where sellers of used guns are almost as common as oil wells and prime rib. Indeed, you and bystanders in the immediate area are much more endangered by rounds that do not penetrate sufficiently than by rounds that overpenetrate.. The FBI claims a bullet has no hydrostatic shock capabilities until at least 2200-2400 fps. In fact, thats what civil liberty defense ammo is all about. The one thing Ive learned and seen over a lot of shooting is that a 9mm with FMJ bullets is mostly useless. Another reason why in war officers loved the 45 as for close infighting it usually too just 1or2 shots to land the enemy on the ground. Will that hollow point still have the same effect? Most people ask to be shot with the 9mm instead of the .45acp. I can buy that. All righty then, I started with 38 caliber revolvers in the early 70s, 53 yrs later, since few people carry revolvers, capacity, I have bounced back and forth and keep ammo for both 9mm and 45. The .45 is a less desirable round because of Air Resistance? Laboratory studies of fish have found plastics can cause harm to reproductive systems and stress the liver. And it is acceptable to me that they made at least some of their determination based on the need to accommodate smaller hands. How about some scientific caliber comparisons with the same type bullet and velocity range and most common weights. In other words, negative acceleration and a non-linear path are both occurring. Battlestar Galactica. 25 ft same situation, I was surprised at 50 ft when my 45 actually tore the watermelon to shreds even more so than 15 and 25ft, the 9mm remained the same, 100 ft I actually missed 3 times with my Walther q4 9mm before I hit. Four ribs had essentially turned to dust. I carry 9mm JHP for EDC and also use JHP in the .40 High Point. As long as YOU are comfortable with the choice, then Im happy for you! Love it. Because its difficult to pack enough explosive powder into a cartridge thats supposed to fit within the shooters pistol grip, handgun designers typically try to increase firepower by sticking a bigger piece of metal on the end of a round. It has something to do with occasions where they might carry concealed: Since last year, MARSOC has purchased and fielded 1,654 Glock 19s because Raiders needed a reliable secondary weapon that could be used for both a concealed carry profile and a low-visibility profile, and having one approved pistol for all special operators saves money, he said. Ive shot both calibers at humans as a soldier and as a LEO and 9mm just doesnt get the same results as 45 in the same number of shots. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook, Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition. A .20 gauge double barrel should be good for home defense day for a woman or a guy. Give me a break!! I have yet to see this. I have never personally tested 9mm long range, but I have seen 45 Auto results. Penetration of 7" pine boards for various pistol calibres: Illustrative penetration capabilities of a 30-06 full -jacketed rifle bullet at a velocity of 2700 ft/s and at a range of 200 yd: 1" of armour plate 7" of gravel 4.5" of brick 4" of concrete 32" of oak wood 6.5" of dry sand 7" of moist sand 26" of loam 24" of clay 19" of loose earth 60" of 1" pine boards, Continue reading here: General wound ballistic concepts, FREE Military Tough 6-in-1 Tactical Survival Knife, Free 2nd Amendment Gun Rights Silver Coin, Green Beret Master Sergeant Home Security Checklist, Winning Plays Texted To Your Phone That Comes Directly From An Elite Team Of Sharps, Ballistics Theory Straight Line Muzzle To Target, Internal External and Terminal Ballistics, High Standard Pistols - Firearms identification, Drop In Auto Sear - AR15 to M16 Conversion. This was not a good CC carry for me so I stoped carring for a while. So, yes, they are looking at it with the assumption that modern 9mm JHP bullets perform very similarly to .40s&w and .45acp, and thus will move toward 9mm loadings for sidearms. A pistol just sucks in that situation. Such as my Kimber and Walther and can never forget the CZ shadow 2. Why arent both so much better than .223? Ive carried about every size round in my 71+ years of which 36 was an LEO. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. Patrick explains in his treatise that, A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. Practice thats all it takes. I love it. So many guns so little time! All this scientific garbage really sounds great, but if you need fifteen rounds to eliminate a threat you got real bad aiming habits. The only thing caliber has to do with it is 9mm is size efficient for capacity. My understanding in past test 9mms dont do well in front car windshield stops. arrow moving at what velocity.200 feet per second? Great little weapon !!! Thanks. quick defense trigger and has an extended 17rnd clip. The kidneys separate this material from the blood. Obama wants us dead. We have came a long ways with jackets, cores and construction of bullets in the last 50 + years. When theres no more powder burning to push the projectile, it decelerates. The old adage If its good enough for the military, its good enough for me. is just nonsense today. Is S&W so inferior that our domestic brand was eliminated? In combat the one thing that does count is having more capacity, whether you miss or have more threats to neutralize, more capacity is a good thing no matter how you look at it. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. Got to love 45 in Army Guard 21 years. Really late to the discussion. In 30 years I saw a shit-ton of things. Their explanation (other than increasing ammo capacity): bullet technology has come a long way since 1986. All rights reserved. Small, light, and more rugged than a lot plastic guns. My neighbor saw that the guy was afraid of the thing and couldnt get back on target after the 1st shot due to the recoil and his flinching with every shot. The worse thing in a gunfight is running out of ammo, lol If you shoot well it shouldnt make a difference, especially with todays ammo types. Sound familiar?? You might be able to talk to the first guy. The best I heard about itcirca Desert Shieldwas that at least the guns werent beaten completely to death, badly maintained by armorers who were phoning it in, and handed out off the rack with worn-out springs and safety levers falling out, like the M1911s had been ever since after Korea. The objective of this study was to construct a Of course shot placement is important. well lets fac the facts ere during th banna war the marines choose the 45 acp end of story. When dealing with a highly motivated target, milliseconds matter. What i find interesting is that so many people have so much to say and they have never been in actual shoot out. The story makes that even sound too few. Interesting. The above referenced expert needs to stick with whatever he may really be an expert at. Yes, Im another old Viet Nam Vet. and manufacturers. 9mm doesnt work so well one at a time from a pistol, but we didnt have any expectation that it would. Handgun wounds include the first three of these factors, but generally do not include the fourth. (My opinion) I have long advocated carrying 1911s with 8 extra magazines. Now good defensive hollow point is a different story. Media in category "Human body" The following 64 files are in this category, out of 64 total. If you know firearms and know how to properly use them than the caliber shouldnt matter. A pilot was shot and killed by a .45acp in WWII. THE FOWDYFIVE IS THE LORDS CALIBER!!! CAN I GET AN AMEN?!? (that was actually a thing btw, Im not .45 Magazine type M1911 mag.45 ACP: Damage 1389 Blood: Fire modes Semi Shots to kill body: 3 head: 1 Effective range 50/100 m Rate of fire moderate Recoil Moderat Noise Moderate I trap and shoot most animals with a Browning 1911-22 now. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. To each their own. Glocks are cheap and reliable. Shot placement vs. It has never failed me and conceals extremely well. You probably wont feel as much pain in your hands or joints when the rounds go off as when youre practicing on the range. Look for a box or option labeled Home Page (Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari) or On Startup (Chrome). I carry a 10auto. The main reason I now have a 9 mm is that at the time, I could not find a small enough 45 that was double action. What I saw in Korea during the Korean War was that the .45 ACP was the most deadly Ive shot so many different weapons, started at the age of 11, hunted most of my life. The quibble is over. Copyright 2023 Im sure, given the choice, MARSOC troops would take a 15 round FNX45 over a Glock 15. .45 in Nam and owned one for several years. View our Terms of Service This is important because of permanent cavitation: The greater amount of tissue that is destroyed, the greater chance of incapacitation, all other factors being equal. I will address the people shooting the weapons in the military. NATO settled for the 9mm as a general service handgun cartridge after the war in part based on the testimony of a whole bunch of old SS guys whod served on the Russian Front. Why do I say that? We put our money behind the 9mm round fired by an extremely well-trained marksman carrying a Glock 19, Mannweiler told Marine Corps Times. Shot with 300 win mag at 500 yards. Mine is easily concealable, accurate and has never failed to function. I still carry a Ruger P-97 in 45 ACP caliber. Soldiers and police officers are far more likely to engage multiple targets in extended shootouts with adversaries, and therefore have a much greater need for a high capacity pistol than I will in a self-defense scenario. So modern ammo IS NOT the reason to switch back to the 9mm. If you carry, you owe it to everyone to be as proficient as possible. When a lot of agencies began switching to 9mm from .45 ACP and other heavier calibers, something became very apparent: the FMJ 9mm at high velocity tended The lack of penetration, compared to a 9mm ,from a 45 can be eliminated by using a long barrel , 5+, and +P rounds. I just know the most important thing is to shoot a lot, and carry the gun you are most comfortable shooting. Semiautomatic rifles dont shoot the largest bullets on the market. Yes, Hugh, I have shot both rounds into a human and I can say this. Shot placement was nearly identical. Your story could have just as easily gone the same way but with a Glock 21 (similar to Timothy Gramins experience). I see your point. The two most important factors to consider, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavitation. In the woods my .45 r1 with cast is what I carry. Was the 357 mag. Also SOCOM has been using hollowpoint ammunition for years, but primarily against unsanctioned terrorist personnel. But to suggest they made the change due to the reasons quoted aboveparticularly because the 9mm supposedly has greater penetration due to less air resistanceis complete hogwash! The projectile is losing velocity and arcing downward. However, I purchased the 9 mm because for a carry gun I feel safer with the style of firearm I bought for daily carry purposes. Just how common are self-defense uses of firearms? Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Think the title of this article is misleading. Thank you Bill ! 9mm. Plenty of gang shootings. It has been reported by Heritage about how there are a number of personal protection gun uses that make the news in any given month, but are given a tiny fraction of the attention that mass shooters and other violent gun criminals receive. Fired expert m14. Have fun be safe and shoot often for sport and recreation and maybe someday to save your life and loved ones! A tenured officer responded to a violent male mental on a *TD bus. You can not tell me this otherwise because, I know this for a fact. Copyright 2023 I have yet to see any really legit fair and unbiased comparison of the 9mm and 45acp calibers. Were they not the agency who got thier asses handed to them that created this debate in the first place? So youre that guy safe at home on the computer. I just bought a S&W M&P 9 Shield. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62. can weigh in at 125 grains.

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